Negatives to Game Fish Bill?

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Negatives to Game Fish Bill?
Negatives to Game Fish Bill?
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Negatives to Game Fish Bill?
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seapower
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem1,
No answer will satisfy you. How about just look at the number of fishermen and fisherie's, they have been regulated "out" of. Wonder why a "few" specie's get hit harder? It's because the guy's are at the end of their rope. Who in the devil can make a living on 50 to 75 fish aday. Of course, it really doesn't matter to you. The size limit's have gone up over time, for the simple reason, to cut back on creel lilit's. There are load's of, "just undersized" flounder, trout, etc...... Just where do you think those fish go? Come on, you're the self proclaimed rocket scientist, with no experience, answer's, etc....... So let's see what the guy with the paper has to say??????? Frank
  
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ChrisMcCaffity
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cathem1, we supply 90% of Red Drum on the US market because most of the other state's with them have listened to people like you that want to take the public's FREEDOM to eat them so they can play with them! The Red Drum stock is healthy in NC because both recreational and commercial fisherman followed the regulations implemented years ago to rebuild the stocks from decades of gross mismanagement. It is time to reward both sectors for our sacrifices by increasing the possession limits rather than violating the Fisheries Reform Act by punishing 97% of North Carolinians for the benefit of 3%.

Why do you refuse to offer any solutions that would benefit everyone and the resource? Would you support limiting the number of larger breeder Red Drum "sportsmen" can catch and pull from the water for pictures while wiping off their protective slime and damaging their vital organs before discarding them to recover or slowly die and go to waste?
  
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BaitWaster
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Percentages is very misleading. Yes NC provides 90% of wild red drum, but that;s only about 200,000 lbs whole weight. Filleted out that about 75,000 lbs. If you think NC red drum fillets are feeding the blackened redfish market in Naw'leans think again. Shipping wild fish down there can't compete with price and availability of farm raised.

Gamefish isn't about protecting a resource; it is about allocation to a single user group - those that have the wherewithal to catch their own

The cons are loss of income to the harvesters and the multipliers to the community, loss of fish to consumers and regulatory discards for fish that die when targeting other species.
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on guys...
No need to sweat me as I am just a guy with a a question...

Please stick to the topic...

What are the negatives (and plz don't say it's people like me as I am only a guy with a passion.... FISHING!!!! Knowledge and Experience don't hurt either as I am a former Commercial Fisherman ;)
  
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaitWaster wrote:
Percentages is very misleading. Yes NC provides 90% of wild red drum, but that;s only about 200,000 lbs whole weight. Filleted out that about 75,000 lbs. If you think NC red drum fillets are feeding the blackened redfish market in Naw'leans think again. Shipping wild fish down there can't compete with price and availability of farm raised.

Gamefish isn't about protecting a resource; it is about allocation to a single user group - those that have the wherewithal to catch their own

The cons are loss of income to the harvesters and the multipliers to the community, loss of fish to consumers and regulatory discards for fish that die when targeting other species.


Thank you BaitWaster for bringing in a Con! That all I asked...
I agree that the economics will change; however, if you look at the so called "case studies" (for us in NC anyways) of Florida and Louisanna you will see the EXPONENTIAL Multiplier of $$ increase when this type of protection Is offered to gamefish! Just take a while and educate yourself on the obvious benefits!! Jobs/ income/ tourism... All of which are just a bonus to the increase of our fish stocks!
  
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Capt_John
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem1 wrote:
Come on guys...
No need to sweat me as I am just a guy with a a question...

Please stick to the topic...

What are the negatives (and plz don't say it's people like me as I am only a guy with a passion.... FISHING!!!! Knowledge and Experience don't hurt either as I am a former Commercial Fisherman ;)


Percentages is very misleading. Yes NC provides 90% of wild red drum, but that;s only about 200,000 lbs whole weight. Filleted out that about 75,000 lbs. If you think NC red drum fillets are feeding the blackened redfish market in Naw'leans think again. Shipping wild fish down there can't compete with price and availability of farm raised.

Gamefish isn't about protecting a resource; it is about allocation to a single user group - those that have the wherewithal to catch their own

The cons are loss of income to the harvesters and the multipliers to the community, loss of fish to consumers and regulatory discards for fish that die when targeting other species.


Seems pretty on topic to me.
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BaitWaster
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jobs/income and tourism increases are all speculative with gamefish.

The cons are all real and tangible.

For this to work and benefit NC, additional folks would have to come from out of state for the specific purpose of targeting these fish. Money spent on sportfishing come from discretionary income and I'm guessing this is not at an all time high.

In-state discretionary spending might be shifted from, say, golf but the amount circulating in state would be constant. Unless you think folks are going to pull money out of savings to take advantage of a perceived improvement in fishing.

I don't see creel numbers going up for any of these species any time soon. Do you?
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MidnightWind
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem

For a guy so interested in the stocks, I sure got some pictures of you with illegal grouper.

Same ole BS. CCA Pastal shirt wearing, Fly Pole waving folks want it all to themselves.

Like Dave said, I call em like I see em.
  
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MidnightWind wrote:
Catchem

For a guy so interested in the stocks, I sure got some pictures of you with illegal grouper.

Same ole BS. CCA Pastal shirt wearing, Fly Pole waving folks want it all to themselves.

Like Dave said, I call em like I see em.


So thats you answer... Hahaha not so much a negative impact of the game fish bill... As of now... No one can give me a viable reason (in the context of tje question)
And the pic u r speaking of! Let's see it please!!! ;)
  
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaitWaster wrote:
Jobs/income and tourism increases are all speculative with gamefish.

The cons are all real and tangible.

For this to work and benefit NC, additional folks would have to come from out of state for the specific purpose of targeting these fish. Money spent on sportfishing come from discretionary income and I'm guessing this is not at an all time high.

In-state discretionary spending might be shifted from, say, golf but the amount circulating in state would be constant. Unless you think folks are going to pull money out of savings to take advantage of a perceived improvement in fishing.

I don't see creel numbers going up for any of these species any time soon. Do you?


Brother,
Protection of "game fish species" works!! And it's tangible! Seriously, look at the studies and emplementation of this in FLA and LA. Its all about rebounding overfished species... The great thing about this bill is that the Economic impact on our EEC and guided fishing JUMPS UP!

Please give me FACTS on Negative impacts Of this bill...
  
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RoughandReady
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem
Facts are most tourists don't fish, Nor do they want to.
More of them are consumers, which for the most part would rather
sample fresh local fish. Then catch them.
Gamefish status just shifts the catch from one user group to the other.While ignoring the consumer. (How convenient)
Which one user group has been recording there catch for over 20 years,
While the other group is using the best guess method. So we lose all
our solid data? Shift everything over to your best guess and beleave
it as truth? Gamefish Status just shifts management back a couple decades then...
But as long as your happy who cares...... lol
Nothing to do with conservation whatsoever.
  
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MealOnReels
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(NMFS: Marine Recreational Fisheries Statistics Survey 2005 - 2011.Why would anyone use these numbers if they want to stick with the facts?These surveys were in fact a joke.I see no reason to make decisions with this kind of info.  
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RoughandReady
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at the recreational sea bass catch from last year.
Shortest season ever, Worse Data ever, You want more push that
gamefish bill through and see what you get, Shorter seasons, less catch.
And no real data to back it up. Game over...
  
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoughandReady wrote:
Catchem
Facts are most tourists don't fish, Nor do they want to.
More of them are consumers, which for the most part would rather
sample fresh local fish. Then catch them.
Gamefish status just shifts the catch from one user group to the other.While ignoring the consumer. (How convenient)
Which one user group has been recording there catch for over 20 years,
While the other group is using the best guess method. So we lose all
our solid data? Shift everything over to your best guess and beleave
it as truth? Gamefish Status just shifts management back a couple decades then...
But as long as your happy who cares...... lol
Nothing to do with conservation whatsoever.


R&R,
This has happened... Do research on the positive impacts all around in FLA & LA...
As for MGT... Let's "Manage the Fish and NOT the Fisherman".
That is Stewardship!

One thing we have in common... It seems be both have a passion for and love Fish!
Let's protect what we love!
  
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RoughandReady
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem1 wrote:
RoughandReady wrote:
Catchem
Facts are most tourists don't fish, Nor do they want to.
More of them are consumers, which for the most part would rather
sample fresh local fish. Then catch them.
Gamefish status just shifts the catch from one user group to the other.While ignoring the consumer. (How convenient)
Which one user group has been recording there catch for over 20 years,
While the other group is using the best guess method. So we lose all
our solid data? Shift everything over to your best guess and beleave
it as truth? Gamefish Status just shifts management back a couple decades then...
But as long as your happy who cares...... lol
Nothing to do with conservation whatsoever.


R&R,
This has happened... Do research on the positive impacts all around in FLA & LA...
As for MGT... Let's "Manage the Fish and NOT the Fisherman".
That is Stewardship!

One thing we have in common... It seems be both have a passion for and love Fish!
Let's protect what we love!


I just posted the facts, Done my research, they are using the Guess method. I'd rather see better science instead of the guess method of fish management. What about you?
  
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seapower
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess, working as a "striker", while going through college make's one a "commercial fisherman". My man, IF you were a commercial fisherman, you'd still be fishing. You just took a "job", no more, no less. Now with a college education you have all the answer's. How is it, WE that went through the school of hard knock's, don't have a legid opinion? Hope you have a great catch next time out with your kayak, of cousre carried to the ICW on top of your Prius. The more it change's, the more it stay's the same. Just a different generation. Frank  
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cwayne
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other than commercial who will lose with GF bill????
People who like to eat these fish. I have seen all three species in fish markets in the area during the past month. I have also seen at least 2 of these species on local restaurant menus in the past month. The people who ate these fish would LOSE if these became illegal due to GF status.
I disagree with the economic impact of the recreational fishing figures. Every time I have participated in such a survey, the questioners did not specify how much I spent on certain species, only on all fishing. Of all the money I spent last year (for the past several years in fact), NONE of it was spent targeting Striped Bass, Speckled Trout or Redfish.

If the recreational fishermen in NC want to protect these fish, then stop putting hooks into their mouths. As others have mentioned, wonder how many of the OLD fish caught in Pamlico and other areas, after coming aboard for many photos, survive and continue to reproduce as they would have if not for the photo taking fishermen.

I am a recreational fisherman. I fish for FOOD. I keep fish that my family and friends consume. Sometimes I want to cook fish and don't have any in the freezer. I would much prefer to visit a local fish market and purchase FRESH, LOCAL fish than buy those Asian imports. When I visit those local fish housed, the fisherman who caught them benefits. So does the local person who is running the fish market, the person who sold them their building or provided it for rent, the electric company, other utilities the fish market uses, the people who work on the market's coolers, the list goes on. ALL those people would lose if these fish are no longer available.

Do changes need to be made, YES. The waste of stripers last year was a terrible waste. HOW MANY COMMERCIAL FISHERMEN were at fault? Why penalize everyone for the disgressions of one.

If commercial by catch utilization of these 3 species was as bad as some claim, we should have NONE of them available. I have seen lots of reports of people on this and other forums talking about catching all 3 species for the past several months and years. The commercial utilization of thsi bycatch has NOT depleted them from our waters. The commercial fisherman has just as much right to enjoy this fish as you and me.
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BaitWaster
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem1 wrote:

Brother,
Protection of "game fish species" works!! And it's tangible! Seriously, look at the studies and emplementation of this in FLA and LA. Its all about rebounding overfished species... The great thing about this bill is that the Economic impact on our EEC and guided fishing JUMPS UP!

Please give me FACTS on Negative impacts Of this bill...


BaitWaster wrote:

The cons are loss of income to the harvesters and the multipliers to the community, loss of fish to consumers and regulatory discards for fish that die when targeting other species.


These are facts.

In 2010, $2,000,000 would be taken away from the landing fishermen and there would also be loss of the multipliers (fish houses, suppliers of gear, fuel, repairs, ......)


I think I know the studies pretty well. Red drum, once improved age structure of the stock is confirmed, should be declared recovered in NC with the next stock assessment. Plus the overfished status in NC was in no small measure due to the recs with a 5 fish limit and hanging the 20-50 year-old adults on the scales back in the 70's and 80's.

And in South Florida, the SPR/escapement in Florida isn't a lot better than NC. ( much better in North Fla) So much for "protection."

Would gamefish benefit me personally. Possible.

But when there is a good slot year class, I can usually find enough drum to keep me entertained. And I haven't had any problem finding the adult drum in the last summer/early fall. And I can usually find trout and there should be quite a few legals with the past mild winter.

Discretionary income and time are my rate limiting factors as I suspect is the case with many. And until I retire, I'll spend no more or less money fishing independent of what happens with gamefish.

And I guessing I'll have more problems with more knot heads at the ramps and on the water with folks that think gamefish will suddenly allow them to catch more fish. Add that to the list of cons! lol
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baitwaster,
Please come home to NCW and quit bothering these nice folks :)
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BaitWaster
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

speckhunter80 wrote:
Baitwaster,
Please come home to NCW and quit bothering these nice folks :)


lol Sidebar: Folks here don't seems to engage in snarky, personal attacks. And I don't believe the owner exiles folks for disagreeing with his opinions. wink :D
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, this will take away from Commercial Fisherman Income to those who target Striper/ R.Drum and S. Trout. Yes you may not be able to find these 3 In the local market from your "back yard".

However; being a former comm fisherman ther is one thing we know how to do... ADAPT! We all did (if you were successful) at one point or another. Target different species....
Work crab pots... Heck, at minimum you could farm out soft shell crabs with a trough and running H20 (be sure to educate yourself on water chemistry and ideal salinity levels)... It's an easy and inexpensive way to get top dollar (I speak from experience)...

Other than the comm impact (yes this means local trout, drum, Striper)... What are the negative impacts of the game fish bill??
  
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaitWaster wrote:
speckhunter80 wrote:
Baitwaster,
Please come home to NCW and quit bothering these nice folks :)


lol Sidebar: Folks here don't seems to engage in snarky, personal attacks. And I don't believe the owner exiles folks for disagreeing with his opinions. wink :D


:tu:
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem1 wrote:
Yes, this will take away from Commercial Fisherman Income to those who target Striper/ R.Drum and S. Trout. Yes you may not be able to find these 3 In the local market from your "back yard".

However; being a former comm fisherman ther is one thing we know how to do... ADAPT! We all did (if you were successful) at one point or another. Target different species....
Work crab pots... Heck, at minimum you could farm out soft shell crabs with a trough and running H20 (be sure to educate yourself on water chemistry and ideal salinity levels)... It's an easy and inexpensive way to get top dollar (I speak from experience)...

Other than the comm impact (yes this means local trout, drum, Striper)... What are the negative impacts of the game fish bill??


You are not going to get an answer that suits you so why waste everyone's time. You are stirring the pot and it comes across as very ugly and self serving. You have been answered with several reasons why this is a bad idea and yet your endless diatribe goes on with the same stale statement repeated like a twelve year old girl. Dont come here asking for answers and then ignore the ones given just because they aren't what you are looking for. BAD DATA (or rather worse data) as a result of no commercial landing history, no fish for the consumers who obviously have no worth to you as you dont even consider them, and regulatory discards as a result of these laws passing which will see perfectly good fish floating down stream so that you can catch a few more for fun. Theres three reasons, now ignore them and go on with your hate speach. I say I have never wished for an ignore button so much. Would love to see this guy having this argument with himself.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaitWaster wrote:
speckhunter80 wrote:
Baitwaster,
Please come home to NCW and quit bothering these nice folks :)


lol Sidebar: Folks here don't seems to engage in snarky, personal attacks. And I don't believe the owner exiles folks for disagreeing with his opinions. wink :D

Hitchcock was no different when he ran waterman, just supported a different group.
  
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is protecting already depleted stocks hate speech?

I do see one thing in common.... It appears that most have NO leg to stand on or strategy to go forward.... Sad really...
And Eric, I am sorry about this. THERE IS NO REASON OTHER THAN A SMALL COMMERCIAL INTEREST>>>> NOT TO PROTECT THESE SPECIES...

WHY NOT SEE THE VALUE IN THESE 3 SPECIES AND PROTECT THEM>>> LIKE EVERY OTHER STATE....
I can tell you why

1) DMF managing Fisherman and not the Fish..> THIS IS CHANGING NOW thank GOD!

2) LACK OF EDUCATION (people need to see the non-comm value of protecting these species and the importance of

That being said... we are moving forward and this bill will be in effect very soon!

I am finished with this post as it appears there are a lot of folks here that frankly..... donít give a SH*T about the Facts and SOLID RESEARCH...
AND HONESTLY>>> YOU DONT CARE ABOUT THE FISH STOCKS>>>
ONLY YOUR WALLET... which is obvious in many of your positions taken here

Going forward.... do yourselves a favor and Educate yourself... maybe then you can formulate a viable point that is not just..> ITS OUR RIGHT TO RAPE THE OCEAN... b/c its not... Time to take up an educated position of balance and sustainable harvest...

For those of you that are to ignorant to foresee the future and importance of sustainable harvest... I am truly sorry...
  

Last edited by Catchem1 on Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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ChrisMcCaffity
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem1, people blindly supporting laws like HB-353 out of GREED are the problem in America right now. People do not consider the collective negative impacts of thousands of laws like it. Those laws are the reason America is bankrupt and on the verge of ruin! People ask big brother to shake down their neighbors in the form of taxes to pay for the bloated bureaucracies and law enforcement required to enforce those laws. They seem to feel absolved of any personal responsibility for their actions. What if I decided not to surrender my freedom? Would you have the COURAGE to do a citizen's arrest? Would you physically restrain me or just call your beloved big brother to seize me or mace me and beat me if I continued my civil disobedience? Would you demand big brother violate my Fourth Amendment Constitutional Right in the search for your precious toys? Would you support using any means necessary to stop me from selling one of your toys? What about the consumer? Would you barge into a little old lady's house and take the FOOD off of her plate? Would you have big brother fine her and imprison her if she could not pay the fine?

There are more negative impacts to "game fish" status than you can even imagine. Open your eyes, heart, and mind. Fish are FOOD, not toys. We need to encourage people to stop discarding one fish after another and start keeping what they catch until their possession limit is met and give those fish to the poor if you do not want to eat them.

Here is one more negative impact of HB-353. These numbers are a FACT unlike the promises of BILLIONS of dollars flooding the coast if we surrender our freedom to eat three pretty fish.
FISCAL IMPACT
Yes (X) No ( ) No Estimate Available ( )
FY 2011-12 FY 2012-13 FY 2013-14 FY 2014-15 FY 2015-16
REVENUES Loss of all federal Wildlife and Sport Fish Restoration funds
(~$15 - 20 million per year until all funds are repaid)
EXPENDITURES Up to $1 million of fishing license revenue over 3 years
POSITIONS (cumulative): 0 0 0 0 0
PRINCIPAL DEPARTMENT(S) & PROGRAM(S) AFFECTED:
Division of Marine Fisheries, Department of Environment & Natural Resources
Wildlife Resources Commission
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Sessions/2011/FiscalNotes/House/PDF/HFN0353v1.pdf
  
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris,

Lets not confuse freedom and the protection of our resources...

I dont know if you are a fan of sustainable fish stocks; however, the fish described to protect in this bill are all in need of rebound... If you have other stats on the current status of the R. Drum, Striper and S. Trout please share...

This type of bill makes these stocks BOOM>>>> I spoke with one of my OLD buddies at the Elks Lodge last night as he was talking about how the fishing "used to be"... LETS GET BACK TO THOSE DAYS....
FLA did.... LA did.... Right?
  
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Location: Wilmington NC

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem1 wrote:
Heck, at minimum you could farm out soft shell crabs with a trough and running H20 (be sure to educate yourself on water chemistry and ideal salinity levels)... It's an easy and inexpensive way to get top dollar (I speak from experience)...



Where did you get that eye opening information? What experience do YOU have. Let me know I can forward a name that can help you with your vast experience in soft shell crabs. If it is so easy why did you not stay with it? Where was your set up? What type of tanks were you using? Did you get your information from a reliable source such as Sea Grant? Or did you figure this all out on your own? Inquiring minds want to know :?
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Ol'Salt
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Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 3097
Location: 212 Miles too far to the West

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My problem with Game Fish status is it is not supported by any biological necessity.

I would much prefer that these fisheries change over to hook and line fisheries for the few commercial fishermen who are still engaged in them.

Hook and Line striped bass works well everywhere it is tried. With the recovering red drum stocks this could be a win situation for everyone as well. This would also eliminate the waste associated with net fisheries and particularly so with the striped bass trawl fisheries.

Keep hearing that no one is willing to compromise, giving up on game fish and moving to hook and line fisheries only would be a compromise and a win for all interested parties
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Ol'Salt
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Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 1064
Location: Surf City

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

REVENUES Loss of all federal Wildlife and Sport Fish Restoration funds
(~$15 - 20 million per year until all funds are repaid)

The above has already been addressed and will not apply to HB-353
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