Negatives to Game Fish Bill?

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Negatives to Game Fish Bill?
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:48 am    Post subject: Negatives to Game Fish Bill? Reply with quote

So, lets be honest.

There are ABSOLUTLY NO NEGATIVES to the Game Fish Bill other than a Select Few will need to make a Career Move... RIGHT?

Please let me know of ANY negatives that this Bill will bring (Other than to the Commercial Industry).
  
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I recall the numbers correctly.....

The comms catch .4 % of the total take of one of those species as bycatch. So now instead to those fish being but to some use they will be thrown overboard dead.

That has always been my issue with the gamefish bill....the comms take next to nothing of all three species compared to the Recs. Yet the Recs want 100%.

I am a rec....and I do not inshore fish. I just call'em the way I see'em.

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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as the numbers go... per the research of DMF (the best research we have to date) is as follows:

The information is SHOCKING to me... this is why I am a proponent of the GF Bill...

Keep in mind:
Red Drum are consideres a "Recovering Stock"
Speckeled Trout are considered a "Depleated Stock"

90% of the NATIONS Commercially harvested Red Drum come from NORTH CAROLINA

70% of the NATIONS Speckled Trout are Commercially Harvested here in NC (NCDMF 2010 Spotted Seatrout FMP)

WTH Guys, my take on this is that NC is depleting its formerly bountiful resource and selling outside of the state... This also tells me that other states realize this resource and are protecting it...

A few more numbers.... Rec Fisherman Release (according to research) 85% of ALL Red Drum Caught (NOAA: MRFSS)... ie: they are a VALUABLE SPORT FISH!

As for $$... these fish are "Worth" way more $$ in rec than Comm fishing... the margin is not small... its in the MILLIONS of $$...

So we will be Economically more viable in protecting these species with the GF Bill and there are MORE FISH

= WIN/ WIN! Right?

Lets PASS the Game Fish Bill!
  
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So post the % of Rec take vs Comm take....for each species.

Dave
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DeDuckMan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really??? Let's just throw a few commercial guys under the bus? To bad they have to find another line of work??

What am I missing here?
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt_Dave wrote:
So post the % of Rec take vs Comm take....for each species.

Dave


Sure, With the current Surevey Data we have available for NC (there is no other way to take this data other than a Rec Fisherman Survey for these numbers):

Rec Fisherman
(NMFS: Marine Recreational Fisheries Statistics Survey 2005 - 2011)
85% Release Rate for Red Drum
61% Release Rate for Spec. Trout

Comm Take Speaks for Itself:
NC Comm Fishing provides 90% of the ENTIRE USA's Commercially sold Red Drum....

NC Comm Fishing provides 70% of the ENTIRE USA's Commercially sold Speckeled Trout!

I am not speculating on "Keep Rates" of Commercial Fisheries... I can only provide the Facts and Research which should answer your question.

I am not going out on a limb here... These are the Numbers :)
  
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suggestion:

If anyone has Statistics of why we should not pass this Bill...
Please post them and speak up.
I would like to keep this post Facts and not Opinions.

Thanks!
  
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MealOnReels
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The stats I would like to see would be the bottom line.The fish Killed by recs compared to the fish Killed by comm.  
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here go the numbers.

Red Drum
Average Commercial Landings and Value 2000-2009 161,229 lbs./$215,877

2009 Commercial Landings and Value 194,296 lbs./$316,046

Average Recreational Landings 2000-2009 226,257 lbs. 2009 358,188 lbs.

Spotted trout
Average Commercial Landings and Value 2000-2009 241,189 lbs./$333,533

2009 Commercial Landings and Value 320,247 lbs./$528,985

Average Recreational Landings 2000-2009 571,908 lbs., 2009 833,577 lbs

Striped Bass Category 2002 - 2003 - 2004 - 2005
Average

U.S. Recreational 8.2 - 10.3 - 11.9 - 11.9
Commercial
United States 2.7 - 3.2 - 3.3 - 3.0
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QuickFix
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Negatives to Game Fish Bill? Reply with quote

Catchem1 wrote:
So, lets be honest.

There are ABSOLUTLY NO NEGATIVES to the Game Fish Bill other than a Select Few will need to make a Career Move... RIGHT?

Please let me know of ANY negatives that this Bill will bring (Other than to the Commercial Industry).


Honesty is always a good starting point, so here we go with some FACTS:

1.There are ABSOLUTLY NO NEGATIVES to the Game Fish Bill other than a Select Few will need to make a Career Move...[[color=red]color=red]Wrong...This is your opinion not fact...the fact is consumers will not be able to purchase these fish from NC waters which is a Neagative impact and that is a fact![/color][/color]

2.Rec. fishing for these three species only make up roughly 7.5% of the total economic impact attributable to all of recreational fishing in NC

3. 69% of rec fisherman already target spotted sea trout in NC

4. CCA supports a hook and line commercial fishery for striped bass

5. There is no scientific evidence that eliminating commercial speckled trout fishing will grow the recreational sector beyond those that are currently participating

6. Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi all have great recreational trout fisheries while maintaing a commercial fishery for trout!

Just the facts...not opnion!
  
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Negatives to Game Fish Bill? Reply with quote

QuickFix wrote:
Catchem1 wrote:
So, lets be honest.

There are ABSOLUTLY NO NEGATIVES to the Game Fish Bill other than a Select Few will need to make a Career Move... RIGHT?

Please let me know of ANY negatives that this Bill will bring (Other than to the Commercial Industry).


Honesty is always a good starting point, so here we go with some FACTS:

1.There are ABSOLUTLY NO NEGATIVES to the Game Fish Bill other than a Select Few will need to make a Career Move...[[color=red]color=red]Wrong...This is your opinion not fact...the fact is consumers will not be able to purchase these fish from NC waters which is a Neagative impact and that is a fact![/color][/color]

2.Rec. fishing for these three species only make up roughly 7.5% of the total economic impact attributable to all of recreational fishing in NC

3. 69% of rec fisherman already target spotted sea trout in NC

4. CCA supports a hook and line commercial fishery for striped bass

5. There is no scientific evidence that eliminating commercial speckled trout fishing will grow the recreational sector beyond those that are currently participating

6. Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi all have great recreational trout fisheries while maintaing a commercial fishery for trout!

Just the facts...not opnion!



So do these Facts:

Comm Take Speaks for Itself:
NC Comm Fishing provides 90% of the ENTIRE USA's Commercially sold Red Drum....

NC Comm Fishing provides 70% of the ENTIRE USA's Commercially sold Speckeled Trout!
  
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not have the time to go look them up...The Rec catch was well over 90% and the comm catches where very small.

You might try searching last years thread on this the numbers and source links are in it.

Dave
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Again,

Other than the Commercial Industry,

What or Who will this Game Fish Bill Hurt?



All I see is this HELPING our Fishery... (Remember... not including the Commercial Fishery)

??
  
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QuickFix
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Negatives to Game Fish Bill? Reply with quote

Catchem1 wrote:
QuickFix wrote:
Catchem1 wrote:
So, lets be honest.

There are ABSOLUTLY NO NEGATIVES to the Game Fish Bill other than a Select Few will need to make a Career Move... RIGHT?

Please let me know of ANY negatives that this Bill will bring (Other than to the Commercial Industry).


Honesty is always a good starting point, so here we go with some FACTS:

1.There are ABSOLUTLY NO NEGATIVES to the Game Fish Bill other than a Select Few will need to make a Career Move...[[color=red]color=red]Wrong...This is your opinion not fact...the fact is consumers will not be able to purchase these fish from NC waters which is a Neagative impact and that is a fact![/color][/color]

2.Rec. fishing for these three species only make up roughly 7.5% of the total economic impact attributable to all of recreational fishing in NC

3. 69% of rec fisherman already target spotted sea trout in NC

4. CCA supports a hook and line commercial fishery for striped bass

5. There is no scientific evidence that eliminating commercial speckled trout fishing will grow the recreational sector beyond those that are currently participating

6. Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi all have great recreational trout fisheries while maintaing a commercial fishery for trout!

Just the facts...not opnion!



So do these Facts:

Comm Take Speaks for Itself:
NC Comm Fishing provides 90% of the ENTIRE USA's Commercially sold Red Drum....

NC Comm Fishing provides 70% of the ENTIRE USA's Commercially sold Speckeled Trout!


Well then it would be factual to say that gamefish for Red drum would have negative impact on 90% of the red drum eating population in the ENTIRE USA...it would be factual to say that gamefish for Speckled Trout would have negative impact on 70% of the speckled trout eating population in the ENTIRE USA...

Just the facts!
  
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keeping our Local NC Fish in NC for us to enjoy is not a Negative (to me anyways and yes... that is an opinion)...

Lets let some other State deplete their Fisheries and Natural Resources... Not Ours!!
  
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QuickFix
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem1 wrote:
Keeping our Local NC Fish in NC for us to enjoy is not a Negative (to me anyways and yes... that is an opinion)...

Lets let some other State deplete their Fisheries and Natural Resources... Not Our!!


"I would like to keep this post Facts and not Opinions." So misleading...just like the reasons for Gamefish...Stick to the Facts and not Opinions as you requested...Fact is Louisiana, Florida, and Mississippi have not depleted their speckled trout stocks and have a commercial fishery...Just a Fact!
  
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well,

Can anyone else tell me a Negative Impact of the Game Fish Bill??
(Excluding the Commercial Fishery Industry)
  
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MealOnReels
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excluding the comm fishing industry now?That should get the answer your looking for.  
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bigjohnnc
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if a person wants to eat fresh speckled trout, red drum or striper they either have to catch them themselves or have a friend/neighbor do it for them?

I don't fish inshore much anymore so I guess I"ll just have to trade someone some king mackerel fillets for a decent dinner.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Below is a post made on this subject by Mr. Ray Brown earlier today on another website. I am posting it here with his permission. Mr. Brown has served on numerous ACs for the DMF/MFC. The most recent was the Flounder A/C until he and two other members quit in disgust after the MFC ignored their recommendations. The other two gentleman were a well known and respected individual from Dare County and the second is a well known guide and tackle shop owner from Atlantic Beach.

The last fifteen years have seen a decided shift in NC in terms of where people like me, who feel and felt we needed to change fishery management for the sake of the fish went to plead our case.

People like me are not doing what they are doing simply to take fish from one user group and give it to another. It's all about recovering and then maintaining a healthy stock of fish in our waters. Nothing more. We know the by product of that will bring many benefits.

That decade and half ago we had altruistic ideas of finding "common ground" with people who fished for a living thinking surely they would see the wisdom of not killing the goose while spending the golden eggs. So initially we went to commercial fishermen directly.

That didn't work.

A perfect example was during the first Southern Flounder AC series. After the biologists and the DMF had told us that we needed to cut harvest by 30% from all user groups to stop overfishing the committee voted to put a limit for the first time on recs of 8 and a size limit of 13 inches at the time.

As we turned to address the commercial means of attaining I and others thought it best if they were allowed to self administer their own means of attaining the 30% so we agreed to stop the meeting for 30 minutes and let the commercial members come up with their own recommendation of how to attain their 30% and we agreed that as long as it was legal we'd go along with it.

What greater common ground was to be found than that?

When 30 minutes was up, we re-convened the meeting and here is the means and ways we heard to meet their 30%.

"We don't believe we need to cut the harvest and we certainly don't want to go to 13 inches so we have no suggestion."

Glen Montgomery aka Downeaster was there and part of that response. We know now that not only was 30% needed, it wasn't enough.

That's just one example of how the so called "common ground" approach never worked. It won't work now and at best is often put up as a stall, must like studies are done.

So we turned to the MFC.

Let's see. River Herring. Black Friday where they closed speckled trout to recs to protect the fish, but gave commercials 50 pounds per trip, by catch, which was twice what they averaged catching prior to that day in an open season and they also voted to keep trawling opened on striped bass off of OI in spite of massive kills that had been documented not only a few weeks before but several times in recent years.

We found the MFC was decidedly biased to fishermen, especially commercial fishermen, and not the fish.

In the meantime let's review where we are with the status of our fisheries..

Speckled Trout....overfished
Gray trout...overfished
Southern flounder..overfiished
Red Drum....overfished
Spot....anecdotal comments by participants are not good
Croaker...the historical numbers and places makes even some folks in Oriental think about the name of their festival.
Striped bass..recovered....but as of late and with no constant attention and tweaking of the FMP this fish looks like it's status may soon change downward once again.

So obviously going to the MFC didn't bring any more fish.

So there are only two places left in NC.

The Legislature. That's where we are now and hope history tells you why.

And finally....the last resort...the Court of the People. Let's hope we never have to go there. That's where it gets ugly. That's where it went ultimately in Florida, Texas, and Louisiana.

Hopefully the legislature will at least mandate that the fish once again become the goal of management and not the fishermen. History clearly shows that hasn't worked well at all.


Edited by Ray Brown - Today at 1:13pm

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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MealOnReels wrote:
Excluding the comm fishing industry now?That should get the answer your looking for.


Yes, Excluding Comm Fisheries...
We all know it will cost Comm Jobs... That is a Given...

But Comm Jobs aside...

I want to know the Negative Impacts of the Game Fish Bill...

Anyone...
  
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the most accurate measures of the effects of gamefish would be to write or call the equivalent of our DMF in states where gamefish has been passed and ask them if it had lived up to their expectations and any surprise affects that it may have caused, good or bad.

We all know that no state that has adopted gamefish status has reversed it on any species. That alone seems to say something positive about it.
  
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem1 wrote:
MealOnReels wrote:
Excluding the comm fishing industry now?That should get the answer your looking for.


Yes, Excluding Comm Fisheries...
We all know it will cost Comm Jobs... That is a Given...

But Comm Jobs aside...

I want to know the Negative Impacts of the Game Fish Bill...

Anyone...


You sound like a broken record man. You had several different answers to who else it will hurt and you keep saying the same thing over and over. No matter what is said, you have your opinion and nothing is going to change that. I have no problem with you having an opinion, but your question has been answered a few times already.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously doubt that any commercial fisherman will lose his job if these three fish become gamefish. Few if any fish house workers will lose their job. Seriously doubt any fish house owners will have to close. Commercial fishing will go on with other fish, crabs, shrimp etc. being caught, sold to a fish house or processor, processed and sold again or sent to a retail market for sale.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem1 wrote:
So Again,

Other than the Commercial Industry,

What or Who will this Game Fish Bill Hurt?



All I see is this HELPING our Fishery... (Remember... not including the Commercial Fishery)

??


Consumers. The largest of all three groups. lol
  
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldPirate wrote:
Perhaps the most accurate measures of the effects of gamefish would be to write or call the equivalent of our DMF in states where gamefish has been passed and ask them if it had lived up to their expectations and any surprise affects that it may have caused, good or bad.

We all know that no state that has adopted gamefish status has reversed it on any species. That alone seems to say something positive about it.


Do you know what state have gamefish status for speckled trout? please name them.

Do you know what states have gamefish status for striped bass? Please name them.

Thanks.
  
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you guys are forgetting is that if you close a few species to commercial fishing because it's convienient to you, you add more pressure on another species. Close trout and reds, then flounder gigging will become heavier, spot netting, mullets netting, etc. will get heavier. I do not net commercially, but I do see where this tends to head. The reason that NC catches such high numbers of the comm. rate or reds and trout is due to the demand. A small percentage of the fish caught here, stay here. They're shipped elsewhere and mostly to states that have net bans, etc. There are still people that enjoy eating fresh trout and redfish. To tell someone if you can't come catch it yourself, then tough S$#t is very wrong. The state can take misused funds and hire more law enforcement. They can leave the netting to TRUE comm. fishermen, and not part timers. No one takes into account that since alot of the numbers used for data came out, a huge percentage of comm. fishermen where already forced out of the business for good because of the economy, fuel prices, etc. There are plenty of fish out there to catch for everyone. I'm not saying there doesn't need to be some regulations, but to cut it all out together is wrong.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoughandReady wrote:
Catchem1 wrote:
So Again,

Other than the Commercial Industry,

What or Who will this Game Fish Bill Hurt?



All I see is this HELPING our Fishery... (Remember... not including the Commercial Fishery)

??


Consumers. The largest of all three groups. lol


X3 Winner Winner Winner - It will also crush recreational fishing in other states as they flock here from the Gulf Coast for our world class trout fishing! Poor Louisiana - the hits just keep coming for them!
  
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catchem1, I will tell you who and what is negatively impacted by "game fish" status. First and foremost the Speckled Trout, Red Drum, and Striped Bass that are mostly by-catch in other commercial fisheries that will become Regulatory Discards. Next, the consumer including disabled veterans that defend your FREEDOM against attack from foreign enemies! The domestic enemies who support taking some of our God-given FREEDOM that so many brave American soldiers have defended with their lives in many cases borders on TREASONOUS and dishonors God's gift as well as the soldier's sacrifices! Finally, the commercial fishermen that do not target any of those three species will be negatively impacted as the malicious plan to create TONS of Regulatory Discards unfolds and leads to calls for a ban on the fisheries that interact with any "game fish".

At least have the honor to call for a net ban if that is what you want instead of forcing commercial fishermen to discard TONS of perfectly edible fish that should be feeding people in order to advance other agendas. The very name "game fish" implies that a few misguided "sportsmen" view these delicious fish as little more than toys. It appears that those "sportsmen" would take our freedom to eat a "game fish" because they believe it will make their toys bigger and easier to play with.

I believe it was Edmond Burke that said this. "The essence of tyranny is enforcing STUPID laws." HB-353 is a perfect example of a STUPID TYRANNICAL law that will be enforced through the barrel of a gun and threats of fines, seizure of private property, or even IMPRISONMENT!
  
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen guys,

I do not take any response personal... So keep the feedback coming! :)

We sacrifice a lot for the things we love.
I love fish and the idea of protecting them makes me happy both as a fisherman and as a good steward (especially with the supporting research data from other states that implemented similar bills).

Why does our state provide 90 percent of US red fish market?

Unacceptable to me!

Repetative....
Maybe; however, I have no one yet to EDUCATE me on the Cons of the Game Fish Bill (in the context described above)...

Which leads me to a followup question...
Why do people dislike protecting an obviously depleting resource...?
  
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