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kevlar
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn and I thought it was all Bush's fault this whole time. That's it I'm going to get my shimano and a bag of gulps and put a bigger dent in the fishing population than a shrimp boat.  
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eric13
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecsports wrote:
Does anybody have a link to a study where bottom trawling has improved the eco-system? I have looked and can not find one. I can find plenty that show how it damages the eco-system. If a farmer tills his fields year after year without putting anything back the field becomes useless.

I was in Tampa bay in 93 and went on a speck fishing trip. We caught 3 with a guide. Could not see the bottom in most areas. The grass was gone. They removed the trawls, water cleared up and the grass came back. Plenty of development and golf courses in Tampa as well. We went back in 99 and caught specks (with the same guide) till we begged to go find something else. We caught reds and had a couple of shots at cobia as well.

It seems that when 1 factor (trawls) are removed from the inside grass comes back, fish comeback and the ocean reclaims what it lost.

Dave,

It won't get broad support. Even the full time guys I speak with weekly will not get behind one because they think it is a step toward a net ban. I would love to see it though.


Every commercial fisherman I know would support a RCGL ban. Every one of them feel strongly enough that this is the problem that most affects us all that they would support it with no hic-cups. Anyone who thinks that is a step towards a total net ban has their head in the sand. I just want a promise that they would give it enough time afterwards to show the improvements that I know would come from it. I will remind everyone again just for posterity, you CAN NOT pull a trawl in a creek anywhere in NC. You can ONLY pull trawls up the very center of the ICW and only in open areas which are dwindling. They CAN NOT pull on the flats beside the channel, they CAN NOT pull in the creeks, or creek mouths. ONLY in the very center of the ICW. The DITCH if you will. Stop misleading people who do not know the difference into thinking that creeks are dragged and estuaries are dragged. It's simply NOT TRUE!
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MealOnReels
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's it I'm going to get my shimano and a bag of gulps and put a bigger dent in the fishing population than a shrimp boat.]You would need more than 1 bag,but finding enough people to help would be no problem!
  
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quote] Every commercial fisherman I know would support a RCGL ban. Every one of them feel strongly enough that this is the problem that most affects us all that they would support it with no hic-cups. Anyone who thinks that is a step towards a total net ban has their head in the sand. I just want a promise that they would give it enough time afterwards to show the improvements that I know would come from it. I will remind everyone again just for posterity, you CAN NOT pull a trawl in a creek anywhere in NC. You can ONLY pull trawls up the very center of the ICW and only in open areas which are dwindling. They CAN NOT pull on the flats beside the channel, they CAN NOT pull in the creeks, or creek mouths. ONLY in the very center of the ICW. The DITCH if you will. Stop misleading people who do not know the difference into thinking that creeks are dragged and estuaries are dragged. It's simply NOT TRUE![/quote]

True; however, from personal experience w/ "ditch" pulling at low tide the by-catch was still tremendous...
I believe this may be due to all of the Juvenile fish pulling out of the march and creeks at low tide... they find them selves concentrated in the "ditch".... at least this is my experience.

I know this is controversial; however, in my opinion Shrimp Trawling should be the FIRST to be banned...

This (Trawling) is as close to Raping the ocean as you can get... anyone disagree???

If so please pose your argument!

Sure... subsidize the shrimpers into farming....
  
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First Light
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that it makes any real difference, but after reading all these posts I've decided to fully support the game fish bill. I had hoped to find common ground did exist between commercial and rec fishermen but it's apparent this does not exist. What I did find was constant it's the other guys fault, it's the persons formerly residing in the north fault, not in back yard, finger pointing, heads in the sand, and personal attacks.

No wonder NOAA and Raleigh treat us the way they do.
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Catchem1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First Light wrote:
Not that it makes any real difference, but after reading all these posts I've decided to fully support the game fish bill. I had hoped to find common ground did exist between commercial and rec fishermen but it's apparent this does not exist. What I did find was constant it's the other guys fault, it's the persons formerly residing in the north fault, not in back yard, finger pointing, heads in the sand, and personal attacks.

No wonder NOAA and Raleigh treat us the way they do.


Agreed,

This may be a "Shocker" to some; however, I am a FULL SUPPORTER of the Game Fish Bill...

We need to PASS THIS BILL RIGHT AWAY!!!!!!!!!

Sure... Many disagree with this Bill and many of our current Comm fisherman will need to target different species, different tactics or simply make a career move; however, you cannot disagree our fish stocks will jump (for the protected species described in the Bill)...

If you doubt this.... TAKE A LOOK AT FLORIDA'S Game Fish Bill and its effect on their Redfish and Snook stocks since it was imposed... if you dont know what i am talking about "Google It"... :)

Its about D*mb time our Legislator did something good for our fisheries!!!!! I cannot wait till this Passes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
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ecsports
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eric13 wrote:
ecsports wrote:
Does anybody have a link to a study where bottom trawling has improved the eco-system? I have looked and can not find one. I can find plenty that show how it damages the eco-system. If a farmer tills his fields year after year without putting anything back the field becomes useless.

I was in Tampa bay in 93 and went on a speck fishing trip. We caught 3 with a guide. Could not see the bottom in most areas. The grass was gone. They removed the trawls, water cleared up and the grass came back. Plenty of development and golf courses in Tampa as well. We went back in 99 and caught specks (with the same guide) till we begged to go find something else. We caught reds and had a couple of shots at cobia as well.

It seems that when 1 factor (trawls) are removed from the inside grass comes back, fish comeback and the ocean reclaims what it lost.

Dave,

It won't get broad support. Even the full time guys I speak with weekly will not get behind one because they think it is a step toward a net ban. I would love to see it though.


Every commercial fisherman I know would support a RCGL ban. Every one of them feel strongly enough that this is the problem that most affects us all that they would support it with no hic-cups. Anyone who thinks that is a step towards a total net ban has their head in the sand. I just want a promise that they would give it enough time afterwards to show the improvements that I know would come from it. I will remind everyone again just for posterity, you CAN NOT pull a trawl in a creek anywhere in NC. You can ONLY pull trawls up the very center of the ICW and only in open areas which are dwindling. They CAN NOT pull on the flats beside the channel, they CAN NOT pull in the creeks, or creek mouths. ONLY in the very center of the ICW. The DITCH if you will. Stop misleading people who do not know the difference into thinking that creeks are dragged and estuaries are dragged. It's simply NOT TRUE!


Where did I say creeks were being drug? The ditch became part of the estuary when it was put in.
  
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Desert1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you really say that recs are causing more harm and over fishing than commercials I do not think so,if you consider recs contribution to stress on certain species then yes you can like bluefin tuna when you have those rec fishermen who take to many and you have those that go commercial during bluefin season.  
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ChrisMcCaffity
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desert1, you can say the arbitrary size limits that force recreational fishermen to collectively discard tens of thousands of fish that result in TONS of wasted seafood does at least as much harm as those same laws force commercial fishermen to do. We should be working together toward what should be our common goal of healthy fisheries that can be responsibly harvested forever with very little waste.

All "game fish" supporters, how can you support a LAW that is DESIGNED to turn what is mostly by-catch that feeds people into wasted REGULATORY DISCARDS in a malicious attempt to advance other agendas? Why don't you guys just say you want to ban gill nets and inshore trawling instead of using innocent fish as your pawns in this evil game you are playing with our jobs, food supply, and God-given FREEDOM? How many dead discarded "game fish" are you willing to waste in order to achieve your end goal? Do you accept the radical leftist theory that "the ends justify the means"? How would you like it if commercial fishermen wanted to list flounder, spot, and sea mullet as FOOD FISH? That would be a blatant violation of the Fisheries Reform Act just like "game fish" status would be. All of you need to think long and hard before you support another law that will add to the 1,000 cuts that are slowly killing our Sweet Lady Liberty! All of our freedoms are what collectively make us free people. Once we lose 51% of those freedoms, we will be free no more! We need to stand united in support of common sense regulations that preserve our resources as well as our FREEDOM to access them.

I would be happy to debate HB-353 with any supporter. This is a perfect place to have a civilized honest debate. I am also happy to debate catch shares with anyone who supports them.
  
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First Light
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Show me one common sense proposal advanced by any commercial interest and I'll support it.
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ChrisMcCaffity
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First Light, science based size limits are about as common sense as it gets. How about the RCGL gear restrictions? What about allowing a dip-net only recreational and commercial harvest of Speckled Trout within the legal possession limits during cold-stun events?  
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seapower
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First Light wrote:
Show me one common sense proposal advanced by any commercial interest and I'll support it.

First Light,
Same old story here. "I'll support any compromise as long as it screw's the OTHER guy." Hearing you loud and clear Capt, trouble is, it isn't original.

ECSPORT's and other's on the "other" side, I'll shake your hand's anytime we happen to meet. As I said before, this isn't personal. It's just that the arguement's you guy's put up are "old hat". I'm pretty much done with this discussion, it's the same one that's been going on for some 30 year's now. Take care, Frank
  
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speckhunter80
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI, Mr. McCaffity the regulatory number that NC uses for speckled trout is 10% for discard mortaliy and in November when most recs fish specks it is most likely much less given the cooler water. For 2009 NCDMF numbers ar 933,342 speckled trout released by recreational anglers which amounts to 93,334 dead discards. Way to high but with education on how to properly handle fish(or not handle them) this could be lower.
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First Light
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm pretty much done with this discussion, it's the same one that's been going on for some 30 year's now.


Same here.
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seapower
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Hey Ed, Reply with quote

No issue's between you and I about this post. I've just been here since the stone age and can't keep my mouth shut. I love the water and both side's of the fishing game. Hard to stay quiet, when you've seen what's happened over the year's. Frank  
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ChrisMcCaffity
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

speckhunter80, the slow death and waste of one Speckled Trout is a tragedy. The slow death and waste of 93,334 Speckled Trout is a statistic. Ten percent is the discard mortality rate used by the NCDMF for Speckled Trout and is on the low side for anything but ideal conditions. It is a tragic government mandated waste of our resources and could be avoided with two simple steps. Remove the size limit and require fishermen to keep what they catch until their possession limit is met. If fishermen want bigger fish, they need to use the right gear in the right area at the right time of year. Removing size limits would not only limit waste, it will increase the health of the stock and the average size of the fish in it. Regulatory Discards are being used to shut down fisheries and will continue reducing the number of fish we can keep every time size limits are raised. NOAA is looking at many recreational fisheries being nothing but catch and discard by 2020 because entire quotas will be allocated to dead discards. Maybe we should be looking at ways to limit Regulatory Discards and unite in our fight against the real enemy.  
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james34
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is there even a debate?? Recs harvest more of the big three than commercials, fact!!  
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zigzag
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everytime you put one fish off limits then you increase the pressure on the other species to the breaking point, look at's what is happening offshore.  
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ChrisMcCaffity
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zigzig, roy crabtree should be FIRED IMMEDIATELY for his GROSS INCOMPETENCE in guiding the "management" of our snapper/grouper fishery. The only bottom fish worth anything that either recreational or commercial fishermen can keep now is Trigger Fish. We are forced by law to discard EVERY other fish of any real culinary or monetary value regardless of if they will live or die. The vast majority of Trigger Fish are in water deeper than 23 fathoms this time of year. That means that the mortality rate for the discarded fish will be high. This is a simple solution to that problem in the commercial sector and could be applied with a few adjustments in the recreational sector.

1. Require electronic reporting of catches within 48 hours.
2. Establish split seasons for Trigger Fish, Vermilion Snapper, Snowy Grouper, Red Snapper, Golden Tilefish, and Black Sea Bass.
3. Set Trip Poundage Limits no higher than 1,000 pounds for the first 75% of each seasonal quota. Adjust the TPL for the remaining 25% of each quota to a level that fills the quotas without any long closures. We could target fish with high limits while still keeping the ones with lower limits.
4. Allow a 100 pound by-catch allowance for shallow water grouper and a 25 fish limit for Silver Snapper during the four month spawning closure.

This would follow the MSA mandates to limit waste, make efficient use of our resources, and promote fishermen's safety at sea. It would stabilize the market for our fish by providing consumers with a dependable supply of fresh local seafood. The SAFMC could do this with a Regulatory Amendment by the end of this year if enough people supported the plan. Maybe then they could start collecting accurate data to use in credible stock assessments and the proper management of quotas.
  
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mudhole
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Y'all need to get a fing life..........................  
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zigzag
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChrisMcCaffity wrote:
zigzig, roy crabtree should be FIRED IMMEDIATELY for his GROSS INCOMPETENCE in guiding the "management" of our snapper/grouper fishery. The only bottom fish worth anything that either recreational or commercial fishermen can keep now is Trigger Fish. We are forced by law to discard EVERY other fish of any real culinary or monetary value regardless of if they will live or die. The vast majority of Trigger Fish are in water deeper than 23 fathoms this time of year. That means that the mortality rate for the discarded fish will be high. This is a simple solution to that problem in the commercial sector and could be applied with a few adjustments in the recreational sector.

1. Require electronic reporting of catches within 48 hours.
2. Establish split seasons for Trigger Fish, Vermilion Snapper, Snowy Grouper, Red Snapper, Golden Tilefish, and Black Sea Bass.
3. Set Trip Poundage Limits no higher than 1,000 pounds for the first 75% of each seasonal quota. Adjust the TPL for the remaining 25% of each quota to a level that fills the quotas without any long closures. We could target fish with high limits while still keeping the ones with lower limits.
4. Allow a 100 pound by-catch allowance for shallow water grouper and a 25 fish limit for Silver Snapper during the four month spawning closure.

This would follow the MSA mandates to limit waste, make efficient use of our resources, and promote fishermen's safety at sea. It would stabilize the market for our fish by providing consumers with a dependable supply of fresh local seafood. The SAFMC could do this with a Regulatory Amendment by the end of this year if enough people supported the plan. Maybe then they could start collecting accurate data to use in credible stock assessments and the proper management of quotas.


Well so that there are no discards why not pick a few months during the year when the spawning is at it's peak and just shut down all the bottom fishing?? Then while this is going on we all get our maintenance caught up and then open the season for the rest of the year on everything?? It may seem a little hard at first but in the end it would be better for everybody, no more discrds. But the bottom line is it will not achieve what NOAA and the enviros want, whick is a total closure.
  
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ChrisMcCaffity
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zigzag, I could go along with closing the entire bottom fishery for the month of February. This is in the middle of the four month spawning season closure and it is usually rough. We have to consider the fish houses and consumers when talking about closures that last any longer. January is one of the best months to target Black Sea Bass and Lent usually starts in March. This is a very important time for seafood markets that want to supply Catholics with fresh seafood. Lower possession limits will require us to focus more on the quality of our seafood rather than quantity. We cannot compete with the price of foreign imports, but we can provide fresh local seafood at a premium price. We could provide information about using slush tanks and other ways to maximize the value of our product. We can make more money with fewer fish if we can provide a dependable supply of high-quality local seafood. Restaurants cannot sell imports half of the time and much better fresh seafood the other half. They need consistency.  
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Squid Row
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty much all bottom fishing is already closed from Jan through March

April 1 opens up for beeliners
May 1 opens up for grouper
June will see the start of a 3 1/2 hour sea bass season

No one is going out specifically to target grunts or trigger fish. The only people bottom fishing now are those who stop on the way back in from bluewater trolling

I finally agree with something Chris McCaffity said: "roy crabtree should be FIRED IMMEDIATELY for his GROSS INCOMPETENCE in guiding the "management" of our snapper/grouper fishery"
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ChrisMcCaffity
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Squid Row, I guess I am happy we agree on something. I would like to know what you disagree with about science based size limits or properly managing the quotas with possession limits?  
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